Combat, Stealth, Perception

Readiness:

• Asleep: Asleep monsters take a –5 penalty to their Perception checks.
  A monster that’s asleep doesn’t have any prepared defenses and is surprised when it wakes up. (This may also be a factor in the sleep spell, if that's considered asleep vs. unconscious) At the start of its next turn, it’s ready if there’s an obvious danger present or distracted if there’s no obvious threat nearby.

• Distracted: Distracted monsters take a –2 penalty to their Perception checks.

• Ready: Monsters have their weapons with them, but they are not necessarily in hand. Most of the monsters the PCs meet are in the ready state unless the PCs are particularly sneaky.

• Alert: The monsters have perceived a possible threat and made themselves ready to face it. They roll active Perception checks each round. If no threat materializes after 10 minutes, most monsters revert back to the ready state.

When we are on guard duty.. depending on our endurance and how long we've been at it, we'd be at various states of readiness. Maintaining an 'alert' posture for 2hrs isn't likely, so we'd cycle between alert & ready, or possibly distracted or asleep (if guarding poorly)

When we are sleeping, we're unlikely to hear somethiing, so take -5 (typically passive perception, so it's 5+bonuses) which is not a great DC vs the opposed stealth checks, but if we are hearing combat, the DC is 0 +2 for 10+ squares away.

Surprise can happen when characters or creatures are actively hiding.
If one side notices the other side without being noticed in return, it has the advantage of surprise.
Any group members that are at least 10 squares away from the rest of the group can roll a separate check. (and therefore acts as a different group (possibly surprising or not surprising) separately from the other group.
The group member with the lowest Stealth check modifier rolls a check. Compare the check result to the passive Perception checks of the creatures that might notice the hiding group, or the active checks from alert creatures.
If you move more than 2 squares during the move action, you take a –5 penalty to the Stealth check. If you run, the penalty is –10.

• Note: This is different than we've been using it. One stealth roll is used for each group, using the lowest check modifier.

Creatures that fail to notice the sneaking characters are surprised if the group members attack.
A surprise round occurs if any combatants are unaware of enemy combatants’ presence or hostile intentions. For example, if you fail your Perception check to notice concealed enemies, you’re surprised. Or if supposed allies spring an attack and you failed your Insight check to notice the attackers’ traitorous intentions, you’re surprised. But if any of your allies made their Perception or Insight checks, they’re not surprised.

Objects or circumstances that block vision can contribute to an attempt to achieve surprise. (doors, fog, invisibility, etc.)
Blocked vision provides some degree of concealment, which is one way that characters or creatures can attempt to actively hide.

Combat Encounter sequence:

1. Determine surprise
2. Establish Positions
3. Roll initiative
4. Take surprise round actions
5. Take Turns
6. Begin the next round
7. (repeat 5-6)
8. End the encounter

Based on this, I view a new person entering the scene of an existing battle as having to follow the exact same sequence.

1. A group approaches a battle. Determine if they surprise or are surprised (unlikely since combat is occurring)
   
2. Establish position
3. Roll initiative
4. Take surprise round actions
5. Take Turns (in initiative order with everyone else)
6. Begin the next round
7. (repeat 5-6)
8. End the encounter

The new group would do steps 1-4 and then join the other groups for steps 5+. The other groups continue to do the repeating of steps 5+ and do not roll initiative again, nor do they surprise or roll stealth or anything else in steps 1-4.
We typically skip steps 1 and 4 every time some new creature enters the combat encounter.
The groups in combat could be considered distracted or alert giving bonus/penalty to perception checks. I can see that argued either way. I could actually see us using a system, where if you are in combat, you are distracted and alert. You can choose spend a minor action each round to roll an active perception check with a -2 penalty, or just rely on a passive perception (with -2 penalty for combat)

Scenario:
Rogue sneaks up on a group. Two are unconscious and one's standing still. Rogue gets behind a tree and steps out and does a Deft Strike, and shifts back behind the tree.

Does the Rogue have a move/minor action left or not?

My understanding of the combat system is that the rogue would have 1) been hidden, 2) established a position, 3) rolled initiative (result of roll is irrelavent since he's the only one acting from his perspective), 4) taken Deft strike shot during surprise round.

So the answer to my question would be that he has no actions left, but initiative for round 1 would determine who acts next, now that rogue's arrow has flew into the group from the trees.

The fact that the two unconscious individuals are trying to wake up from a sleep spell cast by the stunned wizard , and have an initiative order for themselves already determined, is not a factor in whether or not the rogue could surprise the group. They wouldn't be all knowing and unsurprisable from anything I have read.

Have we come to any sort of resolution on this discussion?

On a side note, alert status lasts on average 10 minutes. Mechanically speaking, if you think you will exploit game mechanics by going in at the eleven minute mark and you are 100% guarateed that they have relaxed, you will be disappointed...

Your comments on rolling stealth for the lowest steath skill in the party (looking at you Orsik) is well taken, not how we have been playing.

donkey wrote:

Have we come to any sort of resolution on this discussion?

On a side note, alert status lasts on average 10 minutes. Mechanically speaking, if you think you will exploit game mechanics by going in at the eleven minute mark and you are 100% guarateed that they have relaxed, you will be disappointed...

Your comments on rolling stealth for the lowest steath skill in the party (looking at you Orsik) is well taken, not how we have been playing.

As you asked me to do, I have prepared material to support the argument that a surprise round can happen after combat has began.
That said, it is not as common or easy as to have a surprise round at the beginning of a battle.
What we'll need to do though, is to perform each step of the list of combat actions (Determine surprise, Establish Positions, Roll initiative, Take surprise round actions, Take Turns, Begin the next round, (repeat 5-6), End the encounter) when new foes appear in the area.
And once an opponent enters the area where they could be detected (by sight, sound, smell, etc.) then the opposing party has the chance to detect them with passive (or active) perception/insight.

donkey wrote:

Your comments on rolling stealth for the lowest steath skill in the party (looking at you Orsik) is well taken, not how we have been playing.

I don't know Orsik's stealth, but it's quite possibly dex+level/2-armor = 0+3-1 = +2

plate is only -1?

Nope, -2

Quote :

Chameleon
You blend into your surroundings.
At-Will Martial
Immediate Interrupt Personal
Trigger: You are hidden and lose cover or concealment against an enemy
Prerequisite: You must be trained in Stealth.
Effect: Make a Stealth check. You remain hidden from the triggering enemy if your check beats its passive Perception check. Until the end of your next turn, you can remain hidden without needing any cover or concealment.

Since we questioned how this is used, I thought I should point out that it is an immediate interrupt, and therefore cannot be used on the rogue's action.
This means that when a rogue steps out of concealment, it doesn't trigger chameleon.

Chameleon would be triggered by a spellcaster casting a light spell, or an attacker moving around a corner that hid the rogue.