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 Fighter's Combat Challenge

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Skar

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PostSubject: Fighter's Combat Challenge   Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:34 pm

Quote :
Every time you attack an enemy, whether the attack hits or misses, you can choose to mark that target.
In addition, whenever a marked enemy that is adjacent to you shifts or makes an attack that does not include you, you can make a melee basic attack against that enemy as an immediate interrupt.
Two things I'd like to point out.
1) this immediate interrupt is triggered with an ATTACK (hit or miss) on a target. It does not initiate on damage.
Therefore, cleave (which attacks one, but damages two) does not mark two foes.
Also, Rain of Steel (which does damage to all adjacent enemies) does not mark those foes.

2) This immediate interrupt occurs at triggering action and if an interrupt invalidates a triggering action, that action is lost. By this, I'm assuming that a 'hit' invalidates the triggering action ( a shift or makes an attack that doesn't include the marker), and not just an "attack", otherwise all fighters couldn't be ignored, instead of just being dangerous to ignore.

3) This isn't an opportunity attack, so it can be done, in the same round as an opportunity attack, but only once per round.
Which combines to allow for a shift, a move, a ranged attack or a melee attack (that doesn't include the marker) to all provoke an opportunity attack to interrupt the action.
*NOTE: This has been house ruled to be an opportunity attack, so that it cannot be done in the same turn as an opportunity attack, but can be done in the same round as any other immediate action (such as Unbreakable, a readied action, etc.), and therefore done multiple times a round (once per each opponents attempt to shift away/attack). This is a significant increase in the #of times it can be done.


Last edited by Skar on Sun Jun 06, 2010 3:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Gardain
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PostSubject: Re: Fighter's Combat Challenge   Sat Jun 05, 2010 8:09 pm

Skar wrote:
Quote :
Every time you attack an enemy, whether the attack hits or misses, you can choose to mark that target.
In addition, whenever a marked enemy that is adjacent to you shifts or makes an attack that does not include you, you can make a melee basic attack against that enemy as an immediate interrupt.
Two things I'd like to point out.
1) this immediate interrupt is triggered with an ATTACK (hit or miss) on a target. It does not initiate on damage.
Therefore, cleave (which attacks one, but damages two) does not mark two foes.
Also, Rain of Steel (which does damage to all adjacent enemies) does not mark those foes.

2) This immediate interrupt occurs at triggering action and if an interrupt invalidates a triggering action, that action is lost. By this, I'm assuming that a 'hit' invalidates the triggering action ( a shift or makes an attack that doesn't include the marker), and not just an "attack", otherwise all fighters couldn't be ignored, instead of just being dangerous to ignore.

3) This isn't an opportunity attack, so it can be done, in the same round as an opportunity attack, but only once per round.
Which combines to allow for a shift, a move, a ranged attack or a melee attack (that doesn't include the marker) to all provoke an opportunity attack to interrupt the action.
*NOTE: This has been house ruled to be an opportunity attack, so that it cannot be done in the same turn as an opportunity attack, but can be done in the same round as any other immediate action (such as Unbreakable, a readied action, etc.), and therefore done multiple times a round (once per each opponents attempt to shift away/attack). This is a significant increase in the #of times it can be done.



1) Agreed the mark is generate on Attack not on Damage. The immediate interrupt (my counter attack) on the other hand is not just triggered on attack but also on shift.
Cleave - I discussed with Don at the creation of character and followed several wizards posting about usefulness of this attack for marking and he agreed to allow it to mark at well - good news is I have already trained out of cleave so whatever for future play. PHB3 has given the fighter much better replacement for marking multiple targets.
We have NEVER marked with Rain of Steel, it has just done damage.


2) Immediate interrupts don't automatically stop the triggering action they just occur before it unlike immediate actions. if you look at the rules on PHB 268 they only stop the action only if they invalidate the action. My combat superiority does not stop attacks, it just occurs before the attack. I think this is part of your ongoing confusion around immediate interrupts vs immediate actions.

3) Agreed this is not an opportunity attack and also agree we have been playing them as an opportunity attack.
Agreed this housing ruling has given more opportunities to engage Combat Challenge than I should have had.

If Combat Challenge is not an opportunity attack then the benefits of other fighter abilities and feats are diminished:
1) I will not be able to stop shifts.
2) Combat Superiority bonuses to hit/damage also need to be removed.
3) Savage Axe won't apply

Ultimately up to Don.

I will play as either interpretation but have to admit since we had this exact discussion at the camping trip last year and decided on a house ruling as a group to make it an OA I will be a bit disturbed if we change that house ruling now.
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Gardain
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PostSubject: Re: Fighter's Combat Challenge   Sat Jun 05, 2010 8:14 pm

I also have to admit that choosing to revisit a house ruling that we agreed upon now seems like a bit of a personal attack in the midst of the current magic distribution system.

Maybe I am missing something but after 10 months of play with a specific house rule seems like a convenient time to bring it back on the table..

It seems we tend to butt heads more here than the others, if this personal and you are upset with me, I would rather stop playing then find that a game is jeopardizing years of friendship.
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Skar

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PostSubject: Re: Fighter's Combat Challenge   Sun Jun 06, 2010 11:01 am

Gardain wrote:
I also have to admit that choosing to revisit a house ruling that we agreed upon now seems like a bit of a personal attack in the midst of the current magic distribution system.

Maybe I am missing something but after 10 months of play with a specific house rule seems like a convenient time to bring it back on the table..

It seems we tend to butt heads more here than the others, if this personal and you are upset with me, I would rather stop playing then find that a game is jeopardizing years of friendship.

I don't know where you get this idea.. I posted about this a couple months ago. I don't know why you are only replying to it now.

I posted about this in April because I was reviewing immediate actions (both interrupts and reactions), and thought that I would document the rules, interpretations, and house-rules.
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PostSubject: Re: Fighter's Combat Challenge   Sun Jun 06, 2010 11:14 am

The forums just yesterday decided it was a new post and flagged it as unread, rather than back when you originally posted it. I am glad i misinterpreted it's intent.
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Skar

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PostSubject: Re: Fighter's Combat Challenge   Sun Jun 06, 2010 11:45 am

Gardain wrote:
Immediate interrupts don't automatically stop the triggering action they just occur before it unlike immediate actions. if you look at the rules on PHB 268 they only stop the action only if they invalidate the action. My combat superiority does not stop attacks, it just occurs before the attack. I think this is part of your ongoing confusion around immediate interrupts vs immediate actions.
I'm not sure that I'm the confused one, but that's why I posted about it, so we all can get clarification. Though these are all examples of triggered actions and they happen in response to a trigger (basically happening at the same time), some invalidate/stop the trigger, and some don't.

I think you'll agree that you are wrong about combat superiority, of you look at this quote, from the same section that you asked me to read. Which seems pretty clear to me. And if Gardain is not stopping the movement/attacks that triggered it, maybe he should, as well as anyone else using opportunity attacks.
Quote :
PHB 268: Opportunity Action: Interrupts Action: an opportunity action interrupts the action that triggered it.

Can you explain to me what you think "invalidate" means? My original post stated that I "guessed" that it meant "on successful hit" but I wasn't certain. My other guess is that an immediate interrupt would state specifically that it stops the triggering action. If that is true, then can you find examples of that type of Immediate Interrupt?

(p.s. Immediate Interrupts are immediate actions... they are one type of them... the other type is immediate 'reaction' which doesn't invalidate triggers at all.)
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Skar

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PostSubject: Re: Fighter's Combat Challenge   Sun Jun 06, 2010 11:46 am

Gardain wrote:
The forums just yesterday decided it was a new post and flagged it as unread, rather than back when you originally posted it. I am glad i misinterpreted it's intent.
Did DataJungle write the code for these forums?
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Skar

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PostSubject: Re: Fighter's Combat Challenge   Sun Jun 06, 2010 11:55 am

I agree that we house ruled the combat challenge = opportunity attack. There was so few reasons why it couldn't be used as either.
I agree that we shall keep that house-rule for the entirity of Gardain's lifetime.
However, I do want to be open to continued discussion on Fighter rules, so that I improve my understanding of what they are, specifically in this case, the nuances between Combat Challenge and Combat Superiority.
Just so we are clear, i'll make it nice and big, so it's easily spotted to someone glancing at the posts. I did put this as a "Note" in my first post, but I guess the message wasn't clear.

HOUSE RULING:
Combat Challenge is an opportunity attack, not an immediate interrupt, and gains the benefits and disadvantages associated to that.
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Gardain
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PostSubject: Re: Fighter's Combat Challenge   Sun Jun 06, 2010 12:23 pm

Skar wrote:
Gardain wrote:
The forums just yesterday decided it was a new post and flagged it as unread, rather than back when you originally posted it. I am glad i misinterpreted it's intent.
Did DataJungle write the code for these forums?

I guess that is the impact of a free forum provider.
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