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Skar

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PostSubject: Immediate Actions   Thu Apr 01, 2010 9:17 am

Last night Skar tried to use the Symbol of Hope when he and Gardain were hit with Domination.
Don said that it can't be triggered because of the dominate effect (and daze) prevent immediate reactions on Skar's part, because of the portion of the PHB that says "completely resolved" under immediate reactions.

If this interpretation were correct, then actions such as when a monster moves away and provokes AoO wouldn't happen because the monster is now out of range.
Yes.. you can completely resolve the movement, but the attack still happens.

PHB Immediate Action
Reaction: The TRIGGERING action, event or condition occurs and is completely resolved before you take your action (except you can interrupt a creature's movement).

Don's interpretation of a triggering action being completely resolved is for it to completely finish using it's power or attack sequence.
Triggers are events such as "on attack", "on hit", "on miss", "on damage", "on kill"
The reason for the phrase "completely resolved" is because some other immediate interrupts happen before the trigger is resolved, such as Timothy's shield spell protecting him from getting hit. The +4 bonus happens before the hit is completely resolved (ie. did it hit or not?) The determination of "is it a hit" is what they mean by "completely resolved", and not "the entire turn or power".
The reason that it wants the triggering event to be completely resolved is because we have many people doing many things with many powers, and you want all the immediate interrupts that can stop the "hit" from happening, to be done before the ones that react when its a "hit", because you don't want to expend their use on misses.
Once the "hit" has been determined, then the immediate reaction happens.. because it is triggered on the "hit by an attack", and not triggered on "under an effect that a save can end"
Then the "effect of the hit" happens.

I hope that clears it up. It was nearly 12:00am and I didn't have the mental energy to radically change Don's mind last night with a half explained retort.


Last edited by Skar on Thu Apr 01, 2010 10:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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mikebr99

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PostSubject: Re: Immediate Actions   Thu Apr 01, 2010 1:42 pm

I have to agree with Don on this one... An immediate reaction lets you act inresponse to a trigger. The triggering action, event, or condition occurs and is completely resolved before you take your reaction, except that you can interrupt movement after it has moved at least 1 square. This is the only noted exception of an action that isn't completely resolved.

Im assuming the action on Skar left him Dazed and Dominated... Dazed means that you can't take immediate actions. The daily poser of the Symbol of Hope is an immediate action (reaction).

Mike
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Gardain
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PostSubject: Re: Immediate Actions   Thu Apr 01, 2010 3:51 pm

I was in agreement with Don on this one last night. It does hurt the usage on your self if you are trying to stop a dazed effect but not lots of other ongoing effects.

As for the movement example. You quoted the manual where it gives a written exception to the movement restriction, allowing you to interrupt the movement.
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Skar

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PostSubject: Re: Immediate Actions   Thu Apr 01, 2010 9:53 pm

Are you all completely ignoring the explanation of what a trigger is?
Resolving a trigger is not the same as completing an action or using a power.
The trigger in this case is not casting a spell. The trigger is a determined hit... not a miss.. not an attack..
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Skar

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PostSubject: Re: Immediate Actions   Thu Apr 01, 2010 9:57 pm

Gardain wrote:
I was in agreement with Don on this one last night. It does hurt the usage on your self if you are trying to stop a dazed effect but not lots of other ongoing effects.

As for the movement example. You quoted the manual where it gives a written exception to the movement restriction, allowing you to interrupt the movement.

I don't see how this is relavent at all. This is about a trigger on a movement, so all this is saying that the trigger happens at the single square of movement instead of the completed movement action. It's just giving a bit more granularity into the trigger because movement is one trigger that is composed of many smaller actions (such as moving 6 squares).
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Skar

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PostSubject: Re: Immediate Actions   Thu Apr 01, 2010 10:28 pm

You can also continue reading and see that it also gives an example that if an attack were to have two attack rolls, and a trigger were to happen on an attack, it would happen before the second attack roll, and NOT after the entire attack is complete. This supports the narrow interpretation of a trigger being an event such as an attack, a hit, a miss, taking damage, moving a square, etc.

I'm trying to recall where I read about the definition of events in the DMG or elsewhere, and when I find it, I'll post the reference.
I see this as the crux of our disagreement. I am viewing a triggers as any of (action, event or effect), but I think that everyone else is viewing triggers as only actions (moves, powers, etc.)

I think we should put more thought into this, because if lose Gardain, I think we're all dead. That doesn't mean that I want you to agree with me to save Gardain, but I'd like a bit of effort made to see my side of the arguement as well, so that if I'm wrong, it can be explained to me why, besides "what don't you understand".


Last edited by Skar on Thu Apr 01, 2010 10:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Immediate Actions   Thu Apr 01, 2010 10:29 pm

Skar wrote:
Gardain wrote:
I was in agreement with Don on this one last night. It does hurt the usage on your self if you are trying to stop a dazed effect but not lots of other ongoing effects.

As for the movement example. You quoted the manual where it gives a written exception to the movement restriction, allowing you to interrupt the movement.

I don't see how this is relavent at all. This is about a trigger on a movement, so all this is saying that the trigger happens at the single square of movement instead of the completed movement action. It's just giving a bit more granularity into the trigger because movement is one trigger that is composed of many smaller actions (such as moving 6 squares).

I agree that movement is not a relevant example. Thas was actually my point but I guess you are completely missing it.
I only referenced movement and was countering it as an example because YOU CHOSE in it your argument. That being said it is really difficult to counter you when you don't even read your own arguments...
Skar's Original Post: "If this interpretation were correct, then actions such as when a monster moves away and provokes AoO wouldn't happen because the monster is now out of range.
Yes.. you can completely resolve the movement, but the attack still happens."
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PostSubject: Re: Immediate Actions   Thu Apr 01, 2010 10:35 pm

Skar wrote:
Are you all completely ignoring the explanation of what a trigger is?
Resolving a trigger is not the same as completing an action or using a power.
The trigger in this case is not casting a spell. The trigger is a determined hit... not a miss.. not an attack..

"The triggering action, event or condition occurs and is completely resolved before you take your reaction."

So at the crux of your argument is that the the we ignore the word action in that statement and focus on the word event.
Action being the attack.
Event being the hit

If I am getting you right?
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Skar

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PostSubject: Re: Immediate Actions   Thu Apr 01, 2010 10:38 pm

Exactly. In this case, the trigger is an event "a hit", and not an action (a minor, move, or standard).
You can read more about what is an action vs. event on page 267 of PHB. A move is one of the common 'action' triggers.
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Skar

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PostSubject: Re: Immediate Actions   Thu Apr 01, 2010 10:44 pm

Sorry if my first post blurred the discussion. My initial thought was to post about Immediate Actions as a whole, so that it's a valuable post about the rules.
Then I specifically went into the components about the night in question.

I'm glad that you've thought about it, and understand where the distinction is in our different views. Thanks.

Oh, and I don't want us to ignore that actions can be triggers as well. They totally can be, but the trigger in this example isn't an action or condition.
In my mind, an action is something like "Timothy casts Scorching Burst" or "Skar charges" or "moves into range"
A condition is something like "Orsik becomes slowed or poisoned"
An event is something like "fails a save" or "is hit" or "is attacked" or "fails a stealth check"
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Skar

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PostSubject: Re: Immediate Actions   Thu Apr 01, 2010 10:49 pm

I meant to quote Mike's comment about movement, not Jim's.. not sure how that happened.
Sorry Jim.

Mike's comment: "except that you can interrupt movement after it has moved at least 1 square." This is the only noted exception of an action that isn't completely resolved." pg 268 phb _IS_ followed by another example of a double attack being interrupted between attacks by an immediate reaction that happens on the first attack.
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PostSubject: Re: Immediate Actions   Thu Apr 01, 2010 11:06 pm

this forum doesn't like 2 people posting at once I think. I just lost my post...

I think you are looking to get Immediate Reactions to work like immediate interrupts.

I see interrupts as going before completely resolved and can potentially invalidate that action.
I see reactions as after and can invalidate future actions but not the trigger action.

I read page 267 and I while I see the definitions of action types I don't see the reference to events on that page. (I also searched the PDF for the word event and it missed event on page 267 as well)
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Skar

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PostSubject: Re: Immediate Actions   Fri Apr 02, 2010 10:09 am

Ya, I lost one of my posts too, when you posted twice before I finished my one post.

Immediate Interrupts - invalidates the triggering action and the action is lost.
Immediate Reactions don't.

The spell still hits. I'm not in any way trying to stop it.
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Skar

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PostSubject: Re: Immediate Actions   Fri Apr 02, 2010 10:53 am

Let's see if this helps anything... Here's a scenario I made up

Amy charges Brenda with her vanguard weapon.
Brenda can activate wizard's escape or shield
Cathy readies an action "when Brenda is damaged, cast lay on hands Brenda"
Dawn readies an action "when Brenda is attacked, shoot an arrow at Brenda'"
Ethel readies an action "when Brenda is hit, shoot an arrow at Brenda"

  • Amy begins her charge with a move of 2+ squares towards Brenda (this could trigger things like AoO, readied actions, etc. but unless they are immediate interrupts, the rest of the charge will continue after, assuming Amy is still alive)
  • Amy initiates a basic melee attack by rolling a d20 (which triggers Dawn's readied action, but not Amy's immediate reaction or Cathy's or Ethel's). The event has now been completely resolved.. Yes.. it was an attack, and nothing is stopping it.. (such as a prior immediate interrupt on the move, killing Amy, etc.)
    • Dawn shoots at Brenda by rolling a d20 (event resolved as an attack roll)
    • Dawn hits Brenda (this doesn't trigger Brenda's wizard's escape because it's not a melee hit, but it can trigger the wizard's shield spell, which is enough to make the attack miss) (event resolved as a MISS)
    • -- Ethel cannot use her readied action because the hit became a miss once it was completely resolved.
    • Dawn's readied action is finished

  • Amy's attack roll of "20" is now evaluated as a hit or a miss. (Brenda is now under the effect of the wizard's shield).
    It could be a critical and would trigger either Ethel's or Brenda's actions. Since Brenda's is an immediate interrupt, her's happens before the event is resolved, whereas Ethel's needs to be triggered after the event is resolved.
    • Brenda activates wizard's escape and moves 5 squares away. This is an immediate interrupt and stops the "HIT" event.

  • Ethel doesn't get to fire, Amy doesn't get to activate Vanguard, or do damage.
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Skar

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PostSubject: Re: Immediate Actions   Fri Apr 02, 2010 11:00 am

This demonstrates how an immediate action to a trigger happens on the trigger of an event, and prior to the entire action/power/round is completed.

This demonstrates how an immediate interrupt stops a trigger from happening, whereas immediate reactions do not.

This demonstrates how multiple immediate actions can be triggered on the same or different things, and happen in a systematic order.

This demonstrates how important it is to understand "resolving" an event, when it comes to determining the order of actions.
If you were to completely resolve the charge action, prior to allowing any of the triggers "on attack, on hit, on damage", then it would be something like this:

Amy rolls 20 on Brenda, Brenda wizard's escapes, and no readied actions would have happened, and Brenda wouldn't have used a shield spell to stop an arrow hit.
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PostSubject: Re: Immediate Actions   Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:24 pm

I don't understand...

An attack is made...
To hit is determined...
Damage is resolved... and/or effects are applied...

So in this case, either the domination effect is now in place, or it is not yet in place. If it is not yet in place, there is nothing for the immeadiate reaction to impact. Once it is in place, then you are not capable of designating a target (self or other) for it to impact. I am not sure where the confusion lies.
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Skar

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PostSubject: Re: Immediate Actions   Sun Apr 04, 2010 3:39 am

You almost got it. Except, you say there's nothing for it to effect. It's effecting (you or ally) and not effecting a condition. That ally becomes more hopeful.

attack is made,
hit is determined, triggering the effect of the symbol
damage is resolved & effects applied

The effect of the symbol is to give you (or ally) a +5 bonus to saves against the effect of the spell. It is not targeting or removing an spell or effect of the spell. AFTER the effect becomes active AND WHEN the individual is allowed a save, THEN they get a +5 bonus for that effect only.

If the item were to say something like "cleanses an effect on an ally" then I would agree, but those types of items are triggered by the "condition", and not a "on hit". There's a reason why they made the trigger a 'hit' trigger and not a 'condition' trigger.

Now, what I don't know is how the spell is written. These types of multiple target powers are done in several ways. 1) Burst/Blast (attack many things at once), 2) Multiple independent attacks (such as rangers twin shot), or 3) Primary and Secondary attacks (one followed by another, requiring the first to hit, before a second is done)
If it is (1) then both Gardain and Skar would be attacked at the same time, so Skar would apply symbol to either.
If it is (2) it might be either way. Does the hunter load two arrows on the string, or fire one then the other. Does he get to determine the second target after he's rolled the first damage or does he have to declare both targets first?
If it is (3) then it would be on Skar because he was rolled against first (I think)
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PostSubject: Re: Immediate Actions   Sun Apr 04, 2010 9:41 am

Sorry Eug,
But I don't agree with your reading of immediate reactions. Neither of the two quoted exceptions to the rule (going in the middle of movement, or befoer a 2nd attack in a double attack action) is like what you are trying to complete... if you were not now dazed, then you could use this ability after you became dazed (or another condition) on yourself or another...

my $0.02...

Mike
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Skar

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PostSubject: Re: Immediate Actions   Sun Apr 04, 2010 3:28 pm

mikebr99 wrote:
Sorry Eug,
But I don't agree with your reading of immediate reactions. Neither of the two quoted exceptions to the rule (going in the middle of movement, or before a 2nd attack in a double attack action) is like what you are trying to complete... if you were not now dazed, then you could use this ability after you became dazed (or another condition) on yourself or another...

my $0.02...

Mike
Those are not "exceptions". Those are examples (PHB pg 268):
Quote :
"An immediate reaction might interrupt other actions a combatant takes after its triggering action. For example..."
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PostSubject: Re: Immediate Actions   Sun Apr 04, 2010 5:03 pm

Whatever... Reactions aren't as good as interruptions. An interruption would work for you, a reaction wont...unless the DM says so.


Mike
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Skar

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PostSubject: Re: Immediate Actions   Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:04 pm

No kidding. Interrupts stop an ability. Much more beneficial. Reactions just happen in response to something. Like a readied action.
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PostSubject: Re: Immediate Actions   Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:29 am

Skar wrote:
No kidding. Interrupts stop an ability. Much more beneficial. Reactions just happen in response to something. Like a readied action.

Interrupts do not necessarily stop an ability.. They interrupt the flow of the ability and occur part way through it. If and only if they cause an effect or have a property that can invalidate the action they are interrupting will they stop that ability. There benefit is to occur part way through the flow of the action/event they are interrupting. Reactions occur after the event/action that are in response to. This I think is your where you don't understand immediate reactions and are trying to make immediate reactions into immediate interrupts that just don't stop the action they are interrupting.

Also most of your readied actions are invalid. If you re read readied actions.
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Skar

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PostSubject: Re: Immediate Actions   Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:23 pm

Quote :
If an interrupt invalidates a triggering action, that action is lost.
So I guess to be 100% technical I should have said "can stop", whereas immediate reactions cannot usually.

The word you are looking for when you say "action/event" is called a trigger.

Readied actions.. Can you tell me the "why" they are invalid? If not, I'll re-read the entirity to see what you might be talking about.
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PostSubject: Re: Immediate Actions   Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:39 pm

Skar wrote:
Quote :
If an interrupt invalidates a triggering action, that action is lost.
So I guess to be 100% technical I should have said "can stop", whereas immediate reactions cannot usually.

The word you are looking for when you say "action/event" is called a trigger.

Readied actions.. Can you tell me the "why" they are invalid? If not, I'll re-read the entirity to see what you might be talking about.

from PHB:
Choose Trigger: Choose the action that will trigger
your readied action. When that action occurs, you
can use your readied action. If the trigger doesn’t
occur or you choose to ignore it, you can’t use your
readied action, and you take your next turn as
normal.

not event - you were choosing events...


Interrupting an Enemy: If you want to use a readied
action to attack before an enemy attacks, you
should ready your action in response to the enemy’s
movement. That way your attack will be triggered by
a portion of the enemy’s move, and you will interrupt
it and attack first. If you ready an action to be
triggered by an enemy attack, your readied action
will occur as a reaction to that attack, so you’ll attack
after the enemy.


If your interpretation of the immediate reactions were valid you could ready on the attack roll event and still interrupt the attack.
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PostSubject: Re: Immediate Actions   Mon Apr 05, 2010 8:01 pm

1) First line of Ready An Action: states it is an action or event
Quote :
When you ready an action, you prepare to react to a creature’s action or an event.

2) It doesn't interrupt/halt/stop/invalidate an action. It happens at the same time, but it doesn't interrupt.

Here's a quote PHB 291 of a readied action that happens in the middle of a power, because of the trigger being the first part of the power.
Quote :
Note that an enemy might use a power that lets it move and then attack. If you readied an action to attack in response to that enemy’s movement, your readied action interrupts the movement, and you can attack before the enemy does.
Again, it doesn't invalidate the trigger, it just happens after the trigger and before anything else in the enemy's turn.

Further evidence that the event happens before anything else the enemy does is indicated in the initiative quote:
Quote :
After you resolve your readied action, move your place in the initiative order to directly before the creature or the event that triggered your readied action.
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