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 Immediate Actions

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Gardain
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PostSubject: Re: Immediate Actions   Mon Apr 05, 2010 8:05 pm

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.
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Skar

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PostSubject: Re: Immediate Actions   Mon Apr 05, 2010 8:23 pm

Quote :
You warp the natural laws of cause and effect to make an enemy feel the effects of an attack against you.
Daily ✦ Arcane
Immediate Reaction Close burst 5
Trigger: You are hit or missed by an attack
Target: One enemy in burst
Effect: The triggering attack hits the target
If, as you all claim,the attack is completely resolved, then the caster would take the hit, suffer the effects, blah blah, and then this IR would happen. But the description and effect clearly state that it hits the target instead.
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mikebr99

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PostSubject: Re: Immediate Actions   Mon Apr 05, 2010 8:39 pm

Sure... that's either the exception to the rule... or it's going to be errata'd to be an interrupt.

but again... Don has the final call here...

Mike
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Skar

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PostSubject: Re: Immediate Actions   Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:40 am

K, last one, since we're past the point of it being critical for this fight.
I've been reading about this on the web, and there's as much discussion there as we've been having, but the general verdict seems to be a middle ground between our viewpoints.

Trigger happens (such as a hit)
Triggers Immediate Reaction
Effect of trigger
Effect of immediate reaction

so in this case, Skar hit by an effect, Skar activates symbol, Skar is dominated, Skar gets +5 to save vs dominate.
Though it still boggles my mind why they'd have a readied action reset the initiative before the triggering action.

There's about a dozen examples of this on forums, as long as you are okay with the effect of immediate actions effecting the damage/effects of the triggering action after the fact... such as Gardain's unbreakable reducing the damage taken by 10 (after he's taken the damage). You activate it on the trigger, but it doesn't take effect (or become purposeful) until the point where you are taking damage.

Other examples:
Resonant Escape (Avenger Utility 2)
Trigger: An enemy hits or misses you with a melee attack
Effect: You teleport 3 squares

Armor of Wrath (Invoker Feature)
Trigger: An enemy within 5 squares of you hits you
Target: The triggering enemy in burst
Effect: The target takes radiant damage equal to your Constitution modifier, and you push the target 2 squares.

Yield Ground (Ranger Utility 2)
Trigger: An enemy damages you with a melee attack
Effect: You can shift a number of squares equal to your Wisdom modifier. Gain a +2 power bonus to all defenses until the end of your next turn.

Warden’s Grasp (Warden Feature)
Trigger: An enemy marked by you that is within 5 squares of you makes an attack that does not include you as a target
Target: The triggering enemy in burst
Effect: You slide the target 1 square. The target is slowed and cannot shift until the end of its turn

Fox’s Cunning (Ranger Attack 1)
Trigger: An enemy makes a melee attack against you
Attack: You can shift 1 square, then make a basic attack against the enemy.
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Skar

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PostSubject: Re: Immediate Actions   Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:49 pm

I talked with Don, and he wanted me to post what we talked about on the boards, so that this could be understood/commented/agreed upon.
Quote :
Unbreakable Fighter Utility 6
You steel yourself against a brutal attack.
Encounter ✦ Martial
Immediate Reaction Personal
Trigger: You are hit by an attack
Effect: Reduce the damage from the attack by 5 + your Constitution modifier.
This has been used many times by Gardain, so we are familiar with how it plays out, but I'll go over the sequence just to be consistent.
1) attack is made against Gardain
2) attack is resolved as a hit
3) Gardain triggers Unbreakable
4) damage is determined, and resolved with a - (5+con) penalty.
*Note: The damage isn't applied prior to triggering the power, otherwise this would be counted as healing. (which Don agrees that it is not)
*Note: The power is triggered prior to taking damage (the effect of the hit), since the power doesn't "undo damage done", so if the attack were greater than Gardain's remaining health, he wouldn't fall unconscious before the power takes effect.

*Therefore, the conclusion that we drew is that the trigger is resolved, prior to the immediate reaction being allowed, but the power from the immediate reaction happens during the effect of the attack/event/condition.

The parallel with the Symbol of Hope should be identical.
1) the attack was made against Gardain and Skar
2) the attack is resolve as hit & hit
3) the immediate reaction is triggered (Symbol of Hope)
4) the effect of the attack applies to both hit, with a +5 bonus to saves against Skar or ally's future rolls.
*Side Note: Just because Skar is dominated, doesn't mean that he doesn't choose to save against the domination.

p.s. Don said that whatever the three of us (Jim,Mike,Eugene) agree upon as a ruling is what he'll go with, but if we can't agree, then he'll step in to help decide.
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Gardain
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PostSubject: Re: Immediate Actions   Sat Apr 10, 2010 8:15 am

I still think that we would be using Immediate Reactions as immediate interrupts based on your discussion here. That being said you have given a lot of powers that clearly the intent and any use they have are if require they occur before the trigger is resolved. I think this is a case of Wizards screwing up on those powers and I am sure if we dig deep enough we can find dozens more. All that being said I have to agree with Eug on this one based on the multitude of poorly written powers at least until wizards errata's them all.

Taking this stance though I don't see the difference between a reaction and an interrupt and as I read it we are agreeing they are the same thing.
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Skar

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PostSubject: Re: Immediate Actions   Sat Apr 10, 2010 1:56 pm

They are both immediate actions, so therefore they share a lot of common features because of that. (once per round, in response to a trigger, etc.)

To paraphrase the difference between them: an immediate interrupt can interrupt the trigger, and if it invalidates the trigger, then it stops the effect from happening; while, an immediate reaction has a reaction to a trigger's effect, such as modifying damage, modifying a save, moving the person out of the way, etc.
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donkey



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PostSubject: Re: Immediate Actions   Mon Jun 07, 2010 10:00 am

LOL- this thread was just flagged for me as having a new response....
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Gardain
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PostSubject: Re: Immediate Actions   Mon Jun 07, 2010 5:45 pm

donkey wrote:
LOL- this thread was just flagged for me as having a new response....

Mine showed as new yesterday too. I learned from the weekend to look at the post date too.
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