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 Magic Item Distribution System

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Gardain
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PostSubject: Magic Item Distribution System   Tue Jun 01, 2010 9:51 pm

In order to balance our magic distribution I would like to propose a new system:
  • At time of magic distribution rather than assigning specific items or levels of items for each of us to fight over the DM assigns a magic distribution value to each of us
  • We then purchase anything we want up to and including that value (for ease of calculating we use purchase price as listed in all magic item descriptions)
  • We each track our magic distribution value separate from our personal wealth value, any carry forwards can be used towards purchases at the next distribution.
  • You cannot top up this value with external treasure, sale of items or disenchanting of existing items –those actions result in changes in your personal wealth not magic distribution value.
  • You can negotiate with the DM for very large purchases with planning for an early distribution (*this is solely at the DM discretions as to if or when)


Typical Example Flow over 2 distribuions
Distribution A:
  • Everyone gets 3000gp value
  • Skar buys a level 6 item for 2600gp and carries 400g forward

Distribution B:
  • Everyone gets 4000gp value
  • Skar would have 4400g at this point to purchase


Large Item Purchase Example:
  • Orsik wants a +5 holy avenger (625000gp sale value) so I tell that to the DM
  • Next 3 distributions total 375,000gp and Orsik keeps carrying forward
  • Distribution 4 is for 150,0000 and DM at his sole discretion decides the Holy Avenger is here
  • Orsik has 525,000gp value receives the Holy Avenger but is now at -100,000
  • Orsik continues to receive no magic through next distributions until his value is back in the black


Benefits:
• Each of us is 100% in control of our own destiny, if we want to save up for future larger purchases we can, or we can spend now.
• Everyone can get what they want that is affordable, we don’t have to settle on other items.
• Everyone will have had opportunity to get the exact same value then make own choices to use/save/sell/disenchant.
• No other player will be able to dictate or impose magic plans/items on others as we have had in the past

Disadvantages:
• We aren’t truly finding random magic (theme type look to it)
• DM can’t directly assign that theme specific magic item (but could talk to us about fit under the large purchase rule)


Current Issue I see is how would we start at this point:
I propose we start cold turkey and Don supports some overflow purchases now.
I.E. Current magic distribution is say 4500gp and we want a 10th level item at 5000gp we can at this stage start in the hole going to next distribution.
Any current debts would require DM approval
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PostSubject: Re: Magic Item Distribution System   Tue Jun 01, 2010 10:07 pm

Don hopefully that captured the essence of our discussion on MSN
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PostSubject: Re: Magic Item Distribution System   Wed Jun 02, 2010 3:52 pm

Well... it's up to Don to make this game challenging (variable) without inducing a TPK. He can do that any number of ways, from giving out more or less then the recommended amount of magic for our level or adjusting the power of a typical encounter or groups of encounters.

I think we can all agree that he has accomplished that to date?

I think a typical 8th level character should have a 9th lvl item, 8th lvl item, 7th lvl item and 2600gp in cash. I currently have 2 - 10th lvl items, 9th lvl item, 7th lvl item, a 3rd lvl item and i think 0 cash.

How does everyone else fair in comparing with the recommended?

Mike
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donkey



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PostSubject: Re: Magic Item Distribution System   Wed Jun 02, 2010 4:23 pm

The amount of loot isn't the issue. If I ever felt that got out of hand or if you were under-equipped I can fix that within a level or two within the bounds of the story.

I want to find a loot system that works smoothly, works quickly and doesn't lead to conflict. Currently we have none of those. The volume of items avaiable now is so huge that my selecting items is really really difficult and the odds that anyone will get what they really really want is low.

The magic system is designed around getting what you want as you level anyways- this ensures that fact and allows you some control over saving up for a big item or pulling in a number of middle level items....
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PostSubject: Re: Magic Item Distribution System   Wed Jun 02, 2010 5:24 pm

Well, then I like the sounds of this system!

Mike
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PostSubject: Re: Magic Item Distribution System   Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:56 am

Let's try this now.
The only question I have is how does selling fit into this? I have 2 10th level items I don't want.

Tks

Mike
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Gardain
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PostSubject: Re: Magic Item Distribution System   Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:40 am

Selling would add GP to your own personal wealth not to your magic distribution value.
This guarantees that all new magic distribution is 100% equalized.
You can then sell on the market/disenchant/enchant etc outside of this system at your own will.
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donkey



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PostSubject: Re: Magic Item Distribution System   Fri Jun 04, 2010 9:14 am

Under the Character Builds section for each character, I would like everyone to create a new thread for each character, titled magic items, or something similar.

Here, I would like everyone to list their current gold value, any debts they have (within the party or external) and the value of magic they currently have yet to spend.

Under it, list every magic item (and mundane item of value) that you own, the book value of the item and what you actually paid for it. Magic bought with magic is always at par. What Timothy or another caster makes or what you buy with gold will vary in price which is why I would like to see it listed.

If you sell or trade an item, leave it on the sheet, but indicate how you disposed of it. If you buy, trade or sell with another PC, then the terms are up to you. Anyone else, NPC's or merchants, then we will have to do the obvious negotiations which will be impacted by location (Greyhawk > Safeton), demand (weapon prices increase during wartime), negotiation skill and availability (weapons and armor production increases during wartime).

Everytime you get gold or magic, or buy/sell/trade/fabricate something, it is to be listed here. This will be the primary source for information for each character with regards to magic.
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PostSubject: Re: Magic Item Distribution System   Fri Jun 04, 2010 10:53 am

donkey wrote:
Under it, list every magic item (and mundane item of value) that you own, the book value of the item and what you actually paid for it. Magic bought with magic is always at par. What Timothy or another caster makes or what you buy with gold will vary in price which is why I would like to see it listed.

If unsure of past purchase prices etc do we just leave this blank or just place market purchase value?

At what price level do you consider a mundane item of value?

I also think we need a method to tag items that we never wanted but were assigned due to others not having sufficient gold to "purchase" from the loot shares in the past. I know I am in the case with a few items that were defaulted to me to support others taking high value items that I have more as an asset vs actual gold.
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PostSubject: Re: Magic Item Distribution System   Fri Jun 04, 2010 11:03 am

Hi Guys,

Never used google documents before but might be a better way to publish the magic lists.

Just playing from work right now - Can you guys see this and can you edit it?

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=tTMrBeNdI1OQUhhgjkc6dHg&output=html
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PostSubject: Re: Magic Item Distribution System   Fri Jun 04, 2010 11:14 am

from the first post- anything other than your standard adventuring gear should be outlined- mounts, special gear, land, resdium stores, etc. This is not an issue currently but as you hit paragon, you guys are going to have access to a lot of wealth...

Yes, I can see the page. No, I do not have permission to edit it.
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PostSubject: Re: Magic Item Distribution System   Sat Jun 05, 2010 5:39 pm

First... Ok Fine.. that's simple
So.. do I get 4000g to buy stuff with, or does it depend on the gold value of the gear I currently have?
Is there an ability with this new system to pass on loot so that the party becomes stronger, rather than the individual?
It's sometimes really nice to have a powerful defender and healer, instead of powerful strikers, because they can be stopped by an annoying controller.. Or it could be that you want powerful strikers so that enemies die before healing runs out.. either or.. is it possible?


However, I should voice my frustration.
Feel free to stop reading here, if you aren't interested and just want to move forward.
Quote :

I'm frustrated that I spent all this effort to pick items of various levels, for various characters (mine and others included) and propose a distribution system that wasn't given any response, and having another loot system forced down our throat in the middle of distribution, as we work out a new method, after we've been using other methods for months...

I find this sterial. It's ok if you want to build a character from scratch to a level without the random adventuring wins & losses, but it takes away some of the fun of having a chance at winning a exceptional piece of gear, or learning to be content with a mediocre piece.

Based on the treasure levels and Don's instruction to distribute it, I proposed that we roll determine what item levels we want to roll on, and then we roll d20's (modified if we choose to skip the top gear choices with a +3 (cumulative) bonus)
It is simple. Don determines #of items and levels, and we roll d20's, and we then add an item of the appropriate level to our gear.
If we have one magic item, and half the team wishes to roll on it, then have a 33% chance to win it, and the other half the team has a +3 bonus to the next roll on the next treasure found.
.. this can be modified do d100 with a +10%, 15%, 20%, etc.. or a +1% per item level passed on..

This is also more familiar to me, since this World of Warcraft treasure distribution is often done with either a purely 100% randomness, or with a loot council concept (give it to whomever needs it most, or whomever benefits the guild most)

But change is hard, get used to it...
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PostSubject: Re: Magic Item Distribution System   Sun Jun 06, 2010 11:58 am

Skar wrote:
First... Ok Fine.. that's simple
So.. do I get 4000g to buy stuff with, or does it depend on the gold value of the gear I currently have?
Is there an ability with this new system to pass on loot so that the party becomes stronger, rather than the individual?
It's sometimes really nice to have a powerful defender and healer, instead of powerful strikers, because they can be stopped by an annoying controller.. Or it could be that you want powerful strikers so that enemies die before healing runs out.. either or.. is it possible?


However, I should voice my frustration.
Feel free to stop reading here, if you aren't interested and just want to move forward.
Quote :

I'm frustrated that I spent all this effort to pick items of various levels, for various characters (mine and others included) and propose a distribution system that wasn't given any response, and having another loot system forced down our throat in the middle of distribution, as we work out a new method, after we've been using other methods for months...

I find this sterial. It's ok if you want to build a character from scratch to a level without the random adventuring wins & losses, but it takes away some of the fun of having a chance at winning a exceptional piece of gear, or learning to be content with a mediocre piece.

Based on the treasure levels and Don's instruction to distribute it, I proposed that we roll determine what item levels we want to roll on, and then we roll d20's (modified if we choose to skip the top gear choices with a +3 (cumulative) bonus)
It is simple. Don determines #of items and levels, and we roll d20's, and we then add an item of the appropriate level to our gear.
If we have one magic item, and half the team wishes to roll on it, then have a 33% chance to win it, and the other half the team has a +3 bonus to the next roll on the next treasure found.
.. this can be modified do d100 with a +10%, 15%, 20%, etc.. or a +1% per item level passed on..

This is also more familiar to me, since this World of Warcraft treasure distribution is often done with either a purely 100% randomness, or with a loot council concept (give it to whomever needs it most, or whomever benefits the guild most)

But change is hard, get used to it...

You get 4464 to buy whatever you want with. If we want to adjust the current value it woudl have to based on earned wealth not current wealth. Some characters have bought/sold items and if this system were in place from the start those transactions should be factored in not just current value. The other issues we have is when characters started with the party, Orsik/Chrys for instance missed the first few distributions. Rictlin has just joined us and has not only earned treasure in the past few shares.

There is not currently anything in the system to allow you to pass your value to others to purchase items. That being said there is no reason we couldn't add that in. A transfer system between characters.
It alleviates the need for us all to agree on magic and we can proceed individually without long delays in the process so we can get back to play sooner.
Don has already stated he is having difficulties picking magic items to include in the distribution so wants to put that down to us in a quick and efficient manner (recognizing that your rolling system does that as well as Don only has to pick item levels)
There is no wasted effort in you researching your own magic items as you can save or purchase at will towards that magic, actually time well spent you can plan your future magic like we plan feats/powers etc as we level.
While i know you enjoy picking items for everyone, not everyone else appreciates the "forced" distributions your research does.

I can see your point about it being sterial but it facilitates game play. It does allow you to save and allows the DM to reward early the distribution of higher level magic items if he sees fit.

We are almost 2 weeks since last play and no closer on magic and if we adopt a rolling system as you have proposed we will need to get together for session to just to facilitate the rolling. We are currently having issues with scheduling sessions for play so I hate to see one of our few session spent on magic distribution.

I fully understand your frustrations about the changes to the distribution system being forced down your throat, I felt like that at your last distribution system when I had asked questions and didn't have resolution on them on to find out it was adopted without me even knowing it. It was never my intent to force this system down anyone's throat. I posted it as a proposal I had hoped would prompt the discussion points that you are now giving.
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PostSubject: Re: Magic Item Distribution System   Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:59 am

Shrug, this system requires no input on my part. I calculate the number, it gets posted. If any of you are busy and don't do anything with your magic, then we can continue with the next game night without any impact. The default is that you simply accumulate your magic items value.

I don't have to worry about the fact that no one has decided yet nor has anyone included any new items in their combat stats.

Essentially- if anyone has not yet picked their magic, we can still play. If you have picked your magic but not updated your character online, we play with your old stats.

If you want to pad an individual's magic as a group, feel free to modify the percentages when divying up magic.

Essentially, magic doesn't stop game play which is what it does now...
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PostSubject: Re: Magic Item Distribution System   Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:45 am

donkey wrote:
Shrug, this system requires no input on my part. I calculate the number, it gets posted. If any of you are busy and don't do anything with your magic, then we can continue with the next game night without any impact. The default is that you simply accumulate your magic items value.

I don't have to worry about the fact that no one has decided yet nor has anyone included any new items in their combat stats.

Essentially- if anyone has not yet picked their magic, we can still play. If you have picked your magic but not updated your character online, we play with your old stats.

If you want to pad an individual's magic as a group, feel free to modify the percentages when divying up magic.

Essentially, magic doesn't stop game play which is what it does now...
All good points. I have further a further good point that came to me when discussing with Jim.
If Don doesn't want to give out progressive magic items so freely, he can give out wealth, and then we have to go to efforts to find crafters, vendors, etc.
I'm liking this system more and more as I see it's subtleties.

Great idea.
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PostSubject: Re: Magic Item Distribution System   Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:57 am

Gardain wrote:
I fully understand your frustrations about the changes to the distribution system being forced down your throat, I felt like that at your last distribution system when I had asked questions and didn't have resolution on them on to find out it was adopted without me even knowing it. It was never my intent to force this system down anyone's throat. I posted it as a proposal I had hoped would prompt the discussion points that you are now giving.

Thanks. Since I wasn't involved in the initial brainstorming session that went on between Jim and Don, where I guess problems were voiced, and needs/requirements outlined, I missed out on seeing why this new system accomplishes so much that the old system didn't.
Yes, it's different than we've ever done before, but it has a lot of merits, and no draw backs that cannot be overcome by the DM.

If the DM wishes to give out specific loot, he can.
If the DM wishes to give out 'random' loot, he can.
If the DM wishes to give out 'magic shares', he can.
If the DM wishes to give out wealth that can be later used to purchase magic, he can.
If the DM wishes to provide a merchant with magic to sell, he can.

It's very customizable, which I like.

And from gameplay perspective, it requires no additional time, no pre-planning, etc. If someone wants to plan ahead, they can, if someone doesn't have the time, they can wait, and if someone can't decide what they want, they can wait till later... All of which doesn't hold up the rest of the group. If someone wants to save up for a big ticket item, and be without small magics until then, he can. If someone wants to stockpile many small items right away, and suffer later down the road with having to replace gear, he can.

Very nice.

I do have one question. Can the magic share be used to upgrade a +1 weapon into a +2 weapon, or do you just have to buy the +2 weapon fully?
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PostSubject: Re: Magic Item Distribution System   Mon Jun 07, 2010 12:01 pm

donkey wrote:
Under the Character Builds section for each character, I would like everyone to create a new thread for each character, titled magic items, or something similar.

Here, I would like everyone to list their current gold value, any debts they have (within the party or external) and the value of magic they currently have yet to spend.

Under it, list every magic item (and mundane item of value) that you own, the book value of the item and what you actually paid for it. Magic bought with magic is always at par. What Timothy or another caster makes or what you buy with gold will vary in price which is why I would like to see it listed.

If you sell or trade an item, leave it on the sheet, but indicate how you disposed of it. If you buy, trade or sell with another PC, then the terms are up to you. Anyone else, NPC's or merchants, then we will have to do the obvious negotiations which will be impacted by location (Greyhawk > Safeton), demand (weapon prices increase during wartime), negotiation skill and availability (weapons and armor production increases during wartime).

Everytime you get gold or magic, or buy/sell/trade/fabricate something, it is to be listed here. This will be the primary source for information for each character with regards to magic.
Hi Don,
please have a look at my sheet and let me know if this is what you are looking for... and what may be missing. Other's comments are also welcome!

thank you,

Mike
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PostSubject: Re: Magic Item Distribution System   Mon Jun 07, 2010 12:04 pm

I'll be getting rid of 3 things:
+2 orb of sanguary repercussions (10th)
salve of power (10th)
gloves of piersing

Does anyone need these?

Mike
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PostSubject: Re: Magic Item Distribution System   Mon Jun 07, 2010 12:13 pm

mikebr99 wrote:
I'll be getting rid of 3 things:
+2 orb of sanguary repercussions (10th)
salve of power (10th)
gloves of piersing

Does anyone need these?

Mike
Rictlin would love the gloves
Skar could use the salve, if it would work on his omen of enmity that'd be good too..
Salve could give Skar +10 temp HP or a free great cleave, etc.
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PostSubject: Re: Magic Item Distribution System   Tue Jun 08, 2010 1:12 pm

Skar wrote:
mikebr99 wrote:
I'll be getting rid of 3 things:
+2 orb of sanguary repercussions (10th)
salve of power (10th)
gloves of piersing

Does anyone need these?

Mike
Rictlin would love the gloves
Skar could use the salve, if it would work on his omen of enmity that'd be good too..
Salve could give Skar +10 temp HP or a free great cleave, etc.


I just noticed, does Gardain have the Gloves of Piercing??
It looks like they were assigned to me in the last distribution and I never noticed until today:
http://artandblade.forumotion.com/chapters-f1/chapter-thirty-eight-interlude-a-t112-75.htm

I might be wrong.
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PostSubject: Re: Magic Item Distribution System   Tue Jun 08, 2010 1:57 pm

Chrys would also be interested in the Salve- a repeat on one of the high impact encounter heals could be very helpful.
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PostSubject: Re: Magic Item Distribution System   Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:30 pm

We had two gloves of piercing. One as a treasure share, and one that Timothy made for himself. He thought it was a cool item at the time... That said, maybe you have Timothy's and Darkeye has the other. I don't recall.
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PostSubject: Re: Magic Item Distribution System   Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:36 pm

donkey wrote:
Chrys would also be interested in the Salve- a repeat on one of the high impact encounter heals could be very helpful.
Much nicer.. I'd rather have a 2 surge heal instead of +10 temp HP.
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PostSubject: Re: Magic Item Distribution System   Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:17 pm

mikebr99 wrote:
I'll be getting rid of 3 things:
+2 orb of sanguary repercussions (10th)

Mike
Thought about re-enchanting as....??
1) +2 Orb of Resilient Tenacity
Critical: +1d6 damage per plus, and you or an ally within 5 squares of you gains a power bonus to saving throws equal to the enhancement bonus of the orb against one effect until that effect ends.
Power (Daily): Minor. You or an ally within 5 squares of you gains a power bonus to saving throws equal to the enhancement bonus of the orb against one effect until that effect ends.

or 2) +2 Orb of Mental Dominion
Power (Daily): Free Action. Use this power when an attack with this orb succeeds against the target’s Will defense. When the target makes a saving throw against an effect from that attack, the target must roll twice and take the lower result.

or 3) +2 Orb of Frustrated Recovery
Critical: +2d6 damage
Power (Daily): Free Action. Trigger: An enemy within 5 squares of you saves against ongoing damage. Effect: The triggering enemy instead fails the saving throw.

or 4) +2 Orb of Unlucky Exchanges
Critical: +2d6 damage
Power (Daily): Free Action. Use this power when you hit a target with an attack with this implement. One effect affecting you or an ally within 5 squares of you ends. The target gains that effect with the same duration.
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